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Post by brad42 on Jun 10, 2009 12:45:56 GMT -5
During the off season we came up with the concept of comparing ourselves to the American LeMans Series ( www.americanlemans.com ), insofar as how we will run several classes of varying speeds together. I'd like to think our initial test of that was somewhat successful with a few exceptions: 1) We really need to communicate to the track that we insist in starting straight up by qualifying time. The starts were a bit of a grrfuffle, and Paulski got pinned behind me even though he qualified better. 2) We need to educate ourselves on the procedures for passing, and what the blue flag means (and doesn't mean). Maybe make that a NFRA driver's meeting topic. I looked at the results of the ALMS race at Miller Motorsports Park, and gleaned the following data: Car mix - 5 P1 Prototypes. 3 P2 Prototypes, 10 GT cars, and 5 "Challenger" cars (a new class) That looks pretty similar to what our mix is / will be with F200/WF/Clones. In the ALMS, the speed differential between P1 and P2 cars is about 3%. From P1 to GT is about 12%, from P1 to Challenge cars is about 20% speed differential. By comparison, at the last Prairie City race the speed differential from F200 to WF was about 3%, and from F200 to Clone was about 15%. In all cases I compared fastest to fastest. From a safety perspective, i'd love to get Dave Gwinn's view since he lapped all clones (and me) in the main with the largest speed differential. Anyways, for the most part I was bored today an decided to crunch some numbers, then share. |
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Post by Brad Wunder on Jun 10, 2009 12:56:29 GMT -5
Excellent points Brad. I TRIED several times to get Gary to start us based on qualifying time (as they do in Davis) but sometimes things just don't get through if you know what I mean.  And consider going over the flags in the NFRA drivers meeting a done deal. All in all, I think things worked out pretty good at PC. Bored? Wanna mount some tires?  |
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Post by norcalacr on Jun 10, 2009 13:17:09 GMT -5
I prefer Grand Am to ALMS but I get your point.
Regarding blue flags, we might want to consider a way to visibly differentiate one class from another. Differences are obvious in auto racing but much less so in karting. This is especially true for NFRA because multiple engines are allowed in F200 and Clone classes.
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Post by brad42 on Jun 10, 2009 13:26:43 GMT -5
Scott would the differentiation be for the passing driver, of for the club folks running the race? Please elaborate.
The Blue flag is roughly our equivalent to a mirror. It just lets you know a faster car is behind you. My opinion is that it is the responsibility of the faster car to safely pass, and the slower car to take a predictable line. It DOES NOT mean to yeild, or slow down, or take a trip in the marbles.
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Post by norcalacr on Jun 10, 2009 13:54:36 GMT -5
Differentiate from the flagger's perspective. With a glance the flagger would be able to tell if the karts are in different or the same class. Sure the person could call T&S but why make his/her job so complicated?
In the example above, the flagger would see Paul is much faster than Brad (I assume as I wasn't there) and could show the blue flag to Brad knowing that the battle isn't for position.
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Post by Brad Wunder on Jun 10, 2009 17:18:47 GMT -5
Hmmm at the risk of pissing people off, here is my take. It shouldn't be the responsibility of anyone to pull over and let someone pass. It is everyone's responsibility to maintain some semblance of a line (vs. weaving all over the track like a drunken sailor, which at most tracks will get you a black flag eventually anyway). It is up to the faster driver to figure out a way to safely make it around the slower driver. As long as the slower driver is maintaining a line the faster driver should be able to get around him/her. If you can't figure out how to do it then you don't deserve the spot. Learning how to setup someone up for the pass is just as much a part of racing as being able to knock off fast laps.
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Post by ron90 on Jun 10, 2009 17:54:05 GMT -5
That is where the question arises of whether the blue flag is simply a mirror, or a signal to slow and move over, with the slower driver signaling which side to pass. I would have moved over, regardless of a blue flag, and let the faster driver by, because I don't want to mess up someone else's race. I don't have my rules with me but the blue flag is to warn you of a faster kart approaching. You must then hold a predictable line and not try to avoid. My son had an issue with a slower kart who tried to avoid as my son was passing. Luckily my son gave at least two kart widths of space and it turned into just a tap after the kart pulled over the full two kart widths. The problem is when you are fast but not quite fast enough to pass. But when you do pass you are gone. On a sprint track that is the problem. I have been behind people and I just couldn't get the pass done and lost lots of time. But when I finally did pass, the slower kart couldn't keep up and fell back considerably. I believe what you said about letting the faster kart by as I am racing for fun and personally would just like to be on the track racing and actually finish for a change. |
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Post by paulskirocks on Jun 11, 2009 9:38:31 GMT -5
Hmmm at the risk of pissing people off, here is my take. It shouldn't be the responsibility of anyone to pull over and let someone pass. It is everyone's responsibility to maintain some semblance of a line (vs. weaving all over the track like a drunken sailor, which at most tracks will get you a black flag eventually anyway). It is up to the faster driver to figure out a way to safely make it around the slower driver. As long as the slower driver is maintaining a line the faster driver should be able to get around him/her. If you can't figure out how to do it then you don't deserve the spot. Learning how to setup someone up for the pass is just as much a part of racing as being able to knock off fast laps. Here's my take... I tried to be as neutral as possible with my previous posts in this thread, and yet I still pissed someone off. So, I have removed my previous posts. From here on out, however, I am going to speak my mind clearly, to the point, and bluntly... which is sure to piss people off... So, in an effort to NOT piss people off, I am going to attempt to NOT share my opinion publicly. If anyone wants my opinion, feel free to PM me or email paulskirocks @ gmail.com and I'll be happy to share my politically incorrect views... Happy Racing |
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Post by Brad Wunder on Jun 11, 2009 11:03:26 GMT -5
I don't have my rules with me but the blue flag is to warn you of a faster kart approaching. You must then hold a predictable line and not try to avoid. My son had an issue with a slower kart who tried to avoid as my son was passing. Luckily my son gave at least two kart widths of space and it turned into just a tap after the kart pulled over the full two kart widths. The problem is when you are fast but not quite fast enough to pass. But when you do pass you are gone. On a sprint track that is the problem. I have been behind people and I just couldn't get the pass done and lost lots of time. But when I finally did pass, the slower kart couldn't keep up and fell back considerably. I believe what you said about letting the faster kart by as I am racing for fun and personally would just like to be on the track racing and actually finish for a change. My previous post should be been more nuanced. In the situation where the leaders (or just faster drivers for that matter) are coming up on lapped traffic, the track SHOULD throw the blue flag at the slower traffic (and ideally indicate how many fast karts are coming). The slower traffic should temporarily move off the racing line and allow the faster traffic through. What I was referring to in my post was in the context of the start of the race at PC last week (which I believe was the issue being referred it in the deleted posts). Had Gary allowed us to start based on qualifying time there wouldn't be an issue. But even when we are allowed to start based on qualifying time that doesn't mean the drivers with typically quicker times have won't have to start further back than they would like. I can't tell you how many times I came off the track after qualifying and was kicking myself in the butt because I spun, got held up, kicked a chain, or just plain old drove poorly and my times sucked. At that point you just have to deal with it and make the best of it. I agree with Ron that I'm out there to have fun. If I'm going to leave the track pissed off I'd have to ask myself why am I doing this?? ;D Here's my take... I tried to be as neutral as possible with my previous posts in this thread, and yet I still pissed someone off. So, I have removed my previous posts. From here on out, however, I am going to speak my mind clearly, to the point, and bluntly... which is sure to piss people off... So, in an effort to NOT piss people off, I am going to attempt to NOT share my opinion publicly. If anyone wants my opinion, feel free to PM me or email paulskirocks @ gmail.com and I'll be happy to share my politically incorrect views... Happy Racing No need to sugar coat anything Paulski. I hope you (and everyone for that matter) WILL share your thoughts an opinions. And despite your threat of withholding your opinions, I think I know you well enough at this point to know that will last two maybe three days, tops!! ;D I'm sure everyone will be relieved to know that I have ordered a case each of PantyBunch and KnickerTwist. If anyone ever feels that they've gotten their panties in a bunch, or their knickers twisted, I'll rush one of these products right over for some quick relief. NOTE: I will be keeping a bottle of each at my house as I also have been know to suffer from both of these afflictions from time to time despite my best efforts. |
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Post by paulskirocks on Jun 11, 2009 12:24:19 GMT -5
OK, I have been spanked. The last, very offensive post I made has been removed.
Happy Racing
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Post by ron90 on Jun 11, 2009 17:27:39 GMT -5
I don't have my WKA book, but IKF states "Blue. Faster competitior trying to overtake you make room." "Blue with Orange diagonal stripe, the lapping driver is attempting to pass give him consideration. "
These are different from prior years, I think, but will have to check the older rulebooks when I get a chance.
I do NOT agree that the slower traffic should temporarily move off the racing line and allow the faster traffic through, except under unique circumstances.
If you as a driver anticipate the time the faster karts will be behind you can take a wider or narrower line to accommodate them. But do NOT wait to the last minute to quickly change your line, they could be overtaking you at that point and it will be bad.
When I've had really bad days and I know I am going to be lapped I may slow a little in one or two areas (away from everyone), giving the lapping karts an opportunity to catch up on a straight thereby making a clean FAST pass while I point to one side. This has never been a problem. If I am fast and they are pounding on me and I cannot shake them, or just want to get them past me because I lost interest and wasn't having fun anymore, I will hold my line and point. It's then up to them to pass or sit behind me.
It's about fun, but we all have to be safe.
We at Davis will let you qualify and start how ever you want.
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Post by Brad Wunder on Jun 11, 2009 17:42:49 GMT -5
I don't have my WKA book, but IKF states "Blue. Faster competitior trying to overtake you make room." " I do NOT agree that the slower traffic should temporarily move off the racing line and allow the faster traffic through, except under unique circumstances. It's about fun, but we all have to be safe. Hmmmmm. Well, assuming that all drivers are on a "racing" line, wouldn't "make room" imply that they move off their line?? Don't want to make a huge deal out of this. I'm still sticking to my "if I can't get by then it's my own fault" theory. ;D But the main thing, as you said, that that it is all about having fun and being safe. By the way Ron, think you have time to join us out at the track this weekend? |
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Post by paulskirocks on Jun 11, 2009 19:13:34 GMT -5
No. You can always point to the inside after you get on the straight, and lift off the gas enough to let the faster driver by. That is also a great time to glance back and see who is behind you. It very well may become a big deal, and I don't mean just to me. Yes, you certainly are, but that is just a theory.  I couldn't agree more, and safety and fun may become compromised if slower drivers don't yield, especially if they dart past a faster driver/slower class on the start into turn one. I'm sorry, I can't speak for Ron.  It was made very clear to me when I started karting as a rookie in a 125 shifter on road courses to NOT hold up faster drivers in 80 shifters and tags (slower classes), as we were all separated by class, and that I should figure out how to let them by once they caught up, and that usually meant on a straight, pointing to the inside. |
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Post by ron90 on Jun 11, 2009 19:14:57 GMT -5
Make room or give him consideration could imply move off line, but I think that changed recently. I will have to look at my other rulebooks to see.
I plan on being there Sunday with KT, F200, and Kid Kart.
Anyone have any used 55s I can experiment with to see how they work. The 44s are to much and I want to drift some more.
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Post by ron90 on Jun 11, 2009 22:49:36 GMT -5
IKF 2006, IKF 2007, IKF 2008, and 2009
Blue with Orange - The lapping driver is attempting to pass, give him consideration.
Blue - Faster competitor trying to overtake you, make room . Also for sprint, the flag will be shown when they are in danger of being lapped by faster traffic. When a driver is being lapped he will give the right of way to the fast traffic and will point (if possible) to the side of this kart in which he wants the faster kart to pass.
New fight, what is the right-of-way?
I don’t have my WKA rules with me but will check them when I get them back.
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