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Post by karlznet on Jul 27, 2010 16:32:43 GMT -5
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Post by brad42 on Jul 27, 2010 17:18:06 GMT -5
It was only a matter of time. My opinion is I strongly dislike claimer rules.
I typed a whole bunch more then deleted it. Any claim rule wiorth it's salt requires the claimed engone to be fully teched, and only turned over to the claimer if it passes.
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Post by Mac on Jul 27, 2010 17:45:54 GMT -5
Wow..it is getting heated over there on that board.
I understand the idea...keep people from cheating. The problem is that this is a class for those who are more budget conscious. Often those who aren't going to be able to afford it would be the ones to get claimed. I think the comment from the other thread about having to swap your engine for the other persons would make more sense. That way you at least have an engine to race with if needed.
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Post by norcalacr on Jul 27, 2010 17:58:57 GMT -5
I won't run a class with a claimer rule.
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Post by Sean W 51 on Jul 27, 2010 18:34:14 GMT -5
Oh man is it heated... i cant believe how much clones have grown since the beginning of the season. I saw something sad happened at pc, i believe that it became no different than tag, or sr. sportsman. What the drivers flocking into clone need to understand, that contact on the racetrack can lead to the same results at 40 mph as it can at 90mph. Regarding the claimer rules, i think that the claimer price should be $200 and the claimed recives the claimees motor. I also thing that of you sign a legally binding contract, which the claimer rule that we all signed was, you should follow through with it, cheater motor or not. I will be racing with you guys soon, Sean
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warx
Full Member
Posts: 197
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Post by warx on Jul 27, 2010 19:15:52 GMT -5
Maybe you take the winning engine every race and crush it. Oh wait that's Sears Point racing...
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Post by RichH on Jul 27, 2010 19:20:05 GMT -5
I understand the need for the claim rule. Speaking from experience, I do not like the claim rule. If you are doing well in the races then you are going to be a target. Or at least the subject of viscous pit gossip  As has been demonstrated at the last three big clone races. If I had been claimed in the Reno money race I probably would not have raced this last weekend. Mine was a new motor to replace my blown motor . It was your typical $350 pre prepped motor online. Plus my labor, set up, misc parts that go with installing a new motor to be competitive. I could not have afforded to get another motor again. I will not take money from the family budget to finance something that is just fun & enjoyable hobby for me. No glory, no ego, no future driving contract. Raise the claim fee to ( $200- $250 )? Install a firm set of rules track to track, series to series Demand that the tracks provide tech. Were we not the second largest class out there this weekend. Our entry fee money is just as good as the others Lets use the clout of the NFRA and the numbers we can provide to stabilize this class. Continue to network with other clones Rich Huston #415 |
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Post by tactoyo on Jul 28, 2010 14:07:37 GMT -5
Instead of the claimer rule, should the top places be subject to a tech instead?
You guys at NFRA pretty much have most of the experience in these parts so I come to you for input. I've been discussing this with my club since the Clone explosion and to be honest with you I am just not prepared to deal with it. Some of us just want to have fun.
I do not want to see honest drivers stop from racing in reno or at any other track in fear of being claimed. This just isn't fair. Since I do most of the Clone stuff at our track, people complain to me to do something about supposed "cheating". I don't have the knowledge or the experience to know beyond a shadow of a doubt and would like the finger pointing to stop. I thought the claimer would solve this, but I haven't looked at the claimer rule from all perspectives.
If you guys at NFRA come up with a solution that we can standardize in the region at all tracks please let me know. I am just about all out of ideas.
4cycle races are becoming the "show stoppers" at all tracks and we shouldn't let cheating or supposed cheating be our demise. Some karters count on clones not making it and we can't let this happen.
Rich I hope/expect to see you at the night race. Feel free to spank one of my club guys with one of my engines and have it claimed. We just need to prove a point. Let me know if you are interested. I will pull a new one out of the box and put it together in front of you. As I did for Raymond at the track for the money race. tactoyo@aol.com
Even some of our club members think each other are cheating. I've put together at least half of the blue clone engines that my club has in circulation. ZERO cheating I assure you.
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Post by ron90 on Jul 28, 2010 19:05:26 GMT -5
I've said it from the beginning I don't like the claimer rule. If my engine was to be claimed and I left with some cash in my pocket it would take me weeks to getting around to getting another engine and reinstalling everything.
Unfortunately I saw this coming just a few months after Davis' first clone race when I heard people talking about changing parts in the engine, requiring spec gear like in Kid Kart, and blueprinting the clone engine.
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Post by Simon on Jul 29, 2010 23:57:48 GMT -5
The claimer rule might work if we had tech and the rules of the claimer rule were followed. I wasn't at PC so I'm only going by the online gossip, but it sounds like there wasn't much in the way of tech and the claimer rules were ignored. So we pretty much have a free for all at the moment.
I'm happy with a claimer rule, I'm equally happy without. What does concern me is our rules are very wooly and I don't know how they would be inforced even if we did have proper tech. The original spirit of the class was to not do anything to the motor internals apart from take out the rev limiter and rejet. How many of us are racing motors like that ?
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Post by RichH on Jul 30, 2010 0:13:26 GMT -5
Just finish catching up with the lastest round of posts about clones, cheating, proposed rules, and tech ideas. Where are all these people coming from? From some of the ideas posted they don't even know what they are talking about.
I am having doubts about the end of the season run thu the Gold Rush. If the start fudging the rules now to make any one group happy. Karl you where right, they are going to ruin this class
Do we know anyone within the people running the Gold Rush?
Single Class
Defined set of rules( pick one, WKA,IKF,AKRA, Burris (whatever)
Demand tech on at least top three ( random tech on others?)
Claimer rule ( $150 -$250 with swapping motors)
Enforce all the rules
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Post by Sean Winograd on Jul 30, 2010 1:39:30 GMT -5
Rich, you are spot on. Could not agree more. Does anyone know if the goldrush tech guy is willing to enforce rules other than ikf. If not, is there anyone that could do our tech. Do we have the tools to enforce all the no-goes and areas of concern. westcoastkarters has turned into incoherent babble  |
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Post by Simon on Jul 30, 2010 11:34:27 GMT -5
I agree single class is the way to go. As far as mods go I'm ok with 'legal' bolt on mods (cam, springs, jets), but would like to discourage anything that involves access to a full blown machine shop (blue printed carbs, cylinder decking).
Sean, I think westcoastcarters has always been incoherent babble, but you are right, people are making suggestions with no idea what clone motors are all about !
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Post by karlznet on Jul 30, 2010 14:07:34 GMT -5
Well I see most of us have weighed in on what’s been going on so here’s what I know. First off the NFRA does have a direct line contact with the Gold Rush Committee through the Kinsmen Kart Club. I have their ear and have been bending it all week! We are running AKRA (senior) rules with a few minor changes. Age 16 years & up, Used YKC’s, 360#, no 5yo chassis rule and yes the CL1 or CL1m (minus) cam is ok per AKRA, I spoke to them yesterday. (If you have questions on the cam please contact me directly or we can start another thread on the subject). $150 claim as outlined in the “Box Stock Claim Rules and Wavier” that everyone received at PC GR will remain the same. In my opinion this claim rule is a love hate thing but I feel it is absolutely necessary for this class to succeed. However, a claim rule cannot stand on its own without the ability to perform a thorough tech inspection. At the PC GR Jason Hernandez was asked if he would tech the clones. This was to be a simple visual check as no one had the slightest idea of what was yet to come. We had discussed the possibly of using my old engine (which was in my trailer in pieces), to use as a “comparison to known stock parts” if someone was to get claimed. Unfortunately no one was prepared to do a complete tech due to the lack of available clone tech tools at the time. Monday morning we started researching what tools were needed and where to get them, and the following day Jason ordered a complete set of box stock clone tech tools, minus the spring tester which we are still working on. “Claiming” and “Tech” have individual purposes however the ability to perform a thorough tech inspection is absolutely necessary when a claimer rule is in place. The claim/trade that some have mentioned has its possibilities however as you read on you’ll understand why it’s not necessary, at least for the remainder of the GR series. “Claiming”, especially at direct replacement cost of $150.00, is an attempt to discourage folks from spending money with an engine builder and/or spending their own time (labor) inside the engine milling, decking, line boring, blueprinting, matching parts etc. It’s an attempt at staying true to the spirit and intent of the box stock class by getting clone racers to focus on fun and work on honing their driving skills and kart setup instead of pumping endless amounts of $$$ into their engines as required in most other classes. Now before you say “I can’t replace my engine for $150 or I won’t be able to race next weekend”, I ordered a yellow engine the day after PC for $143 shipped to my door. We will have this engine and a new style HF 5bolt at the remainder of the GR races, and they will be made available to anyone who gets claimed for $143, yellow 4 bolt or blue 5 bolt your choice. “Tech” on the other hand is performed to insure that specific areas of the engine meet the specifications set forth by the rules that govern the class. Knowing that you have to go through a post tech inspection when you finish up front should deter folks from purposely cheating up their engine. Tech should reveal any out of range specs for parts or adjustments that may give the engine a performance advantage, whether done intentionally or otherwise. Right now, are you absolutely sure that your engine will pass tech? I’m not positive mine will but I like to think it will. If you’re like me you’ve probably just assumed that your engine is legal because the person you got it from (in my case Tom Cole) told you it was, or if it’s a Harbor Freight you haven’t done anything to the engine other than bolt on the parts kit and go. Jason Hernandez along with Terry Ives will be doing the clone post tech at the next Gold Rush race. Who and what they decide to tech will be at their discretion so everyone should be prepared. BTW, if my engine ever gets claimed I’m sure to be a little bummed at first, but I’ll shake the person’s hand who gets it and tell them to take care of it, make sure to put 16 ounces of fresh Redline Oil in it every race and have fun with it! ~Karl  Modified 7-31 Reason - added Age 16 years & up |
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Post by Mac on Jul 30, 2010 14:11:59 GMT -5
I like Rich and Simon's take. Rules we all know to follow. Legal mods within the specs that any or all could do (nothing you need to be a rocket scientist or NASCAR grease monkey to do). Tech that is reliable and consistent. Claimer rule that is reasonable on both sides. Now how do we create this dream world?  |
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As has been demonstrated at the last three big clone races.
