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Post by Mac on Jul 30, 2010 14:14:52 GMT -5
So as I post this I see Karl's post. Looks like a good start on Utopia  |
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Post by Brad Wunder on Jul 30, 2010 15:06:00 GMT -5
Our friends from over the hill are looking to try something different regarding the whole clone claiming issue. What is your take on this idea?
Brad,
At NNKC's next meeting I am going to propose that the Claimer Rule is removed from our rules.
In it's place I am proposing a challenge rule($100). I have not thought it out completely but this is how it will go:
Top 5 places are subject to a challenge.
Top 6 places are allowed to challenge.
Challenge will have a time limit (specified) and will be onsite following final heat.
Challenged engine will be Teched by designated Tech Person.
Illegal engine: Challenge fee goes back to the person that Challenged. The person cheating will be banned from Competition.
Legal engine: Half the Challenge fee goes to the Club and half goes to the Challenged driver.
I want to keep it simple. Any input is appreciated. Feel free to share this with your guys.
thanks,
Travis
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Post by norcalacr on Jul 30, 2010 17:37:27 GMT -5
Better as it requires tech and limits the scope to top X drivers. And I like that if the engine passes the accused is not punished for being an innocent target.
Don't like "banned from competition". Let's be realistic - name another sanctioning body that bans a competitor for failing tech once. If the club applied the punishment to all classes it might fly.
Besides failing tech does not equal cheating, especially when we're talking about engines mass produced for non-racing purposes. There was much made on other forums of a reputable race engine manufacturer having trouble holding specs set by a racing organization. There will be out of box failures. So DQ for sure. After that it depends on what tech reveals.
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Post by RichH on Jul 30, 2010 17:56:19 GMT -5
All I want to know is how I became the poster boy for Clones!  I am proving points in Reno, my name gets brought up in letters to all the tracks. The guys at Kartel wanted to know if I would put a reasonable response on WCK to all the idiocy being posted. Its hard to sneak in under the radar and race when everybody knows your name. Great letter Brad. I like the challenge idea too Karl you got me nervous about trusting that my motor is legal. Do you need a test motor for practice tech? |
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Post by tactoyo on Jul 30, 2010 19:39:53 GMT -5
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Post by Simon on Jul 30, 2010 20:05:56 GMT -5
Tactoyo, can you clarify this a bit ? The way you have worded this it implies the winning (and possibly podium) motors will only be tech'd if someone puts up the $100 challenge fee ? If so, I don't like that idea at all. We need routine tech checks irrespective of any claimer/challenge rules.
I like Karl's idea of having a new stock (ARC or HF) sat there ready to purchase if your engine gets claimed.
Personally, I would be over the moon if my motor got claimed as it means I would have won a race !!
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Post by Simon on Jul 30, 2010 20:11:24 GMT -5
.... and I REALLY hope the clubs and associations don't make any decisions based on anything posted on the sewer that is westcoastkarters. To my mind that forum has no credibility and should never be given any by anyone actually acting on anything posted there.
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Post by Dan Chase on Jul 30, 2010 20:14:14 GMT -5
Without a claiming rule, what will stop racers in the know of spending endless hours massaging their motors or cherry picking parts from a dozen motors to make one killer motor? That will be perfectly legal even if not in the “spirit” of the clone class. That is one of the reasons we set the claim rule so low, it’s not supposed to be about how much you know about massaging a 4 stroke to get the most out of it. It was to go bolt on a cheap motor and go race. The claim rule was never intended to be in lieu of tech, but to go hand in hand with tech. The growth of the class caught us off, we didn’t have proper tech tools, that has been remedied and there will be full tech at Atwater as well as the rules posted before Atwater, they are in the final stage now.
I have also heard the argument that the claim cost doesn’t cover the racers time to take out the governor and break in the motor, but what do you think will happen when they hand you your motor in a box after it’s been torn down to the crank?
I was racing when the Yamaha came out, it was the clone of the 70’s, it revived karting that was on a downhill spin at the time. A few motors started showing up that were out of spec, rather than getting rid of those motors, they kept changing the rules to accommodate them. My son races Sr. Yamaha, our motor bills for this year were $1200 for 2 complete rebuilds, 2 top ends @ $250 each total motor costs for 12 races so far, $1,700, and that doesn’t include 2 grenaded engines at $1200 each, that’s for the next cheapest Sr. class to run at the front of the field in regional racing.
Seriously, the cost of owning a spare motor is less then you will spend on entry, practice, travel and food for one Gold Rush. That seems to be cheap insurance against someone that will buy a couple pallets of clones and hand them to a motor builder to put that one killer motor together. Don’t think it will happen? I watched it happen in quarter midgets with the Honda motor and it certainly happened in Yamaha, that’s what an Emmick select is.
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Post by tactoyo on Jul 30, 2010 23:53:30 GMT -5
Simon I hope I understood you correctly and answer your question.
Yes as of what I wrote earlier $100 is what initiates the Challenge. (Maybe top places should have a random tech?)
More details on the tech procedure:
The Challenge is meant to be done post Race and not take the place of Prerace Tech. (Top 5 placing positions only for now)
It is meant to catch anything that may not have been caught in Pretech. Due to the large numbers of entries we are seeing at our club races(one hour window to tech, all other classes included) we simply don't have the time to do an extremely thorough tech on every engine.
Pretech will go as follows:
Safety tech comes first as always.
Engine tech will consist of a list of 6 simple visual tech items numbered 1-6.
(for example #1Carb #2Pipe #3Flywheel key)
The Competitor will roll a die and which every number he gets, is what is teched(noted on tech card for future reference).
Of course obvious observable illegal items will be flagged prior to racing.
The idea behind the challenge is to allow an honest driver to go home with their engine and not have to worry about entering a race knowing his engine will be claimed. Especially someone 100% legal and just drives extremely well(accused of cheating).
Maybe the results of the challenge will minimize the out of control trash talking threads as we see on Westcoastkarters.
I also like Karl's idea with having an engine available for purchase with the claimer still in place though.
We also might need to realize that for some, an engine is personal regardless of cost.
I'm just trying to see this from all perspectives. I've never been in the top placing postions so I wouldn't know how it would affect me directly.
let me know if I'm getting off topic.
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Post by Brad Wunder on Jul 31, 2010 12:36:49 GMT -5
Travis,
I agree with Scott than banned from competition may be a bit harsh. Seems like there should be some differentiation between a failing tech and blatantly cheating. Perhaps you could have a level 1 violation and a level 2? Level 1 would be failing tech for routine issues that may "accidentally" happen but shows no obvious attempt to "cheat". Consequence, DQ. Level 2 violation results from an obvious attempt to circumvent the rules (IE unapproved parts, machining of parts etc.) Consequence, DQ and suspended from the next race. A second level 2 violation in the same season would result in suspension for the remainder of the season. A 3rd level 2 violation would result in permanent banishment from the track. I realize that this sort of thing may open up a can of worms but it is just a thought. Making the call between level 1 and 2 violations would be up to who ever is doing tech. Clearing stating what constitutes level 1 and 2 violations would have to spelled out very clearly for this to work.
Dan,
I hear what you are saying. Without a claiming rule it is conceivable that someone would do exactly what you are concerned about (building a super motor by cherry picking parts from a bunch of motors). But, and this is only my personal feelings about this, if some one wants to do that I'd say knock yourself out. I think most of us have better things to do than spend hours doing that. That's not to say someone wouldn't do that but jeez, all of that effort to potentially win a go kart race? In a clone? Running IKF races or grand nats etc. sure I could see that. But the VAST majority of us are out there to have fun with a low cost form of racing.
The bigger equalizer is tech in my opinion. All I want to be assured of is that the motor I got beat by was legal, just like my motor. If the person who won does what you suggest and just has a better motor because they worked harder than I was willing to work on mine, well, then so be it.
It isn't any different than the guy who wins by working for hours getting his kart setup better than mine. Or the guy that puts in hundreds of laps to become a better driver than me. I could do both of those things too but if I don't, and I don't win, I don't have anyone to blame but myself.
To me, while the motor can make a difference, setup and driving skills make the bigger difference in the clone class. In fact, I bet you could go to HF this morning, pick up a new blue motor bolt it to Jeff Nelson's kart and he would still kick ass.
As Karl said, this claimer rule is a love/hate sort of thing. I don't know what the answer is. I do know it seems to be causing a lot of problems and it is up to you guys to figure out what you want to do as it is your class.
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Post by tommy toro on Jul 31, 2010 14:22:09 GMT -5
Well Karl $143 is a bit steep for a blue 5 bolt but the intention is there, I'm going with the if you have more than $150 in your short block and someone claims it dont get butt sore rule.
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Post by Dan Chase on Jul 31, 2010 15:35:51 GMT -5
Brad, I totally agree that driving skills and chassis setup are critical to be successful in clone, that was what it was meant to be. I would be willing to bet that a racer in the back of the pack claims a "legal" winners motor, they will still find themselves in the back of the pack.
That said, there was obvious cheating going on at PC, I could hear motors that had pipes drilled, I could also hear motors that were spinning well above the range of a stock clone. This is our bad, we have not had any enforced tech all year. Again, that will change at Atwater, there are now 2 compete sets of tech tools in NorCal. Hopefully, the cheating will come to an soon.
Without a claiming rule, we open the door for motor builders, cherry picking parts and so on. It happened in Yamaha, it happened in quarter midgets, 40 years of racing I have learned one thing, there is no end to what some racers will do to gain a competitive edge, no matter what the class is.
When we started quarter midgets, we had $300 claim rule, the cost of a Honda a Honda GX140 at the time. QMA kept increasing the claim price, now it's $1200 starting price for a built Honda. Factor in the cost of a clone, you can buy 10 clones for less then a decent Yamaha and what will stop racers from cherry picking parts? Time has proven over and over that some racers will do exactly that. Once they do it, what happens to the newbie or mechanically challenged drivers? They will need to go to a builder, there goes the only true budget class we have in kart racing. If we want to keep clone racing a budget class, the claim rule is essential IMO.
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Post by tactoyo on Jul 31, 2010 18:02:30 GMT -5
Brad I agree. Good idea that when tech is done a violation should be broken down to either deliberate or not. Punishment for continuous deliberate cheating should be progressively worse.
It sounds to me that as of now the claimer rule is a stronger rule for preserving the class. Should i drop the idea of a challenge and put more thought into the. Claimer?
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Post by jason45 on Jul 31, 2010 18:44:46 GMT -5
Dan- I actually looked at the (top 5 minus 1) inside the muffler and not one was drilled.
Just putting it out there!
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Post by Dan Chase on Jul 31, 2010 19:24:12 GMT -5
Hi Jason, the one kart that was really obvious was running mid pack, the other one wasn't as obvious, like the pipe wasn't tightened all the way or the muffler had been massaged, also running mid pack. It must suck when you cheat and can still only run mid pack!  |
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